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%3 N_20200718213659_alcinnz    By alcinnz 2020/07/18 @ 21:36:59 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius @ColinTheMathmo @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe If we're designing a standard (which was my understanding) I'd concur. Let people build pretty much whatever UI they want on it!        (select only this node)     N_20200718214257_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:42:57 -------------------------------- @alcinnz I may disagree with this in a few minutes, but ... I like to think of this not as defining a standard, but as solving a problem. We want search, but we dont really know what search is. So we need to decide what we actually want, and then find a way to achieve it. 1/n CC: @dredmorbius @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718213659_alcinnz->N_20200718214257_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718213826_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 21:38:26 -------------------------------- @alcinnz @dredmorbius @ColinTheMathmo @penguin42 This is, imho, the origin of the MVC design pattern -- underlying information structure and overlying visualization structure can develop independently in parallel. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718213659_alcinnz->N_20200718213826_feonixrift N_20200718202713_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:27:13 -------------------------------- @SearchMe This goes back to stuff @ColinTheMathmo was showing around the other day -- once you have the posts, there's no reason for them to only be displayed / accessed within the mastodon UI. This UI is oriented to realtime access to current conversations and not much else. So it wouldn't even be a good place for search to live to begin with. Which frees up the question of, what would a real solution look like?        (select only this node)     N_20200718203116_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:31:16 -------------------------------- @feonixrift How much to you want to search? All of the fediverse? Existing Mastodon/Fediverse is, as you say, primarily for (near)-real-time exchanges, and then they are gone. If theres something you think you might want to reference later you need to keep a bookmark or similar. But do you want to search *everything* ?? Some things really should be ephemeral, other things should be distilled into some sort of knowledge base. A search is then something else. CC: @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718202713_feonixrift->N_20200718203116_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719104839_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 10:48:39 -------------------------------- @feonixrift And thank you, btw. CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203912_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:39:12 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Thats what I use to create the chart of the Mastodon converations/exchanges CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:43:39 -------------------------------- @feonixrift So at the risk of diverting the conversation, I have Chartodon, which creates this: Then I have DiscDAG, in which conversations like this can take place, graphically, with people replying to nodes in the growing DiGraph. ussionSystem&SelectOnly=N_20200205120440a_Admin CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203912_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719121927_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/19 @ 12:19:27 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius @penguin42 @ColinTheMathmo @alcinnz My swing is the opposite direction -- I want client-side / local / personal rather than server, because I want to expand my personal search capability to subsets of all my generated / consumed streams, not just fedi. Fedi's just one of the most pesky to integrate, and also one of the best test cases for architecture. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719123800_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 12:38:00 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Heres a case where Chartodon fails ... this reply is to a toot that was deleted and replaced. Hence this branch has become detached, and theres (currently) no clean way to reconnect it. Working on it ... CC: @dredmorbius @penguin42 @alcinnz @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719121927_feonixrift->N_20200719123800_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719122751_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 12:27:51 -------------------------------- @feonixrift The personal-bot approach should be able to accommodate that, and would very likely be easier to implement that way. For large-scale distribution & availability, some sort of server integration seems necessary. But the server-side option needn't preclude a local client. The notion of a central content management tool is one that appeals to me. There are already numerous integrated tools (TweetDeck, Friends+Me, etc.) which serve the social media space. As services evolve to API-based JSON-over-HTTPS systems, a pluggable universal manager / interface starts looking possible, though spam, abuse, security, and monetisation (for ads-supported commercial offerings) emerge. Wide of scope but something to keep in mind. @penguin42 @ColinTheMathmo @alcinnz @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719121927_feonixrift->N_20200719122751_dredmorbius N_20200719100105_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 10:01:05 -------------------------------- @clacke Finally, neither Chartodon nor DiscDAG are directly related to the question of search, but they are concerned with presentation and navigation, which are related issues. Once you perform a search you need to be able to navigate the results. I think thats why I was pung in the conversation. 8/8 CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200718205722_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:57:22 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius I am updating every few minutes ... Ive got it in a CLI script ATM. CC: @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718205301_penguin42    By penguin42 2020/07/18 @ 20:53:01 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @feonixrift @dredmorbius @SearchMe Would this be easier if you stacked the longest thread against the left edge vertically? Given the graphs are acyclic and mostly chained, I'm not sure they need something as complex.        (select only this node)     N_20200718205538_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:55:38 -------------------------------- @penguin42 Im just using GraphViz to do the layout, so it would take significant tweaking. The underlying software that I wrote was designed for DiscDAG, where threads do get merged, etc. If this gets imported into DiscDAG then edges can be added to bring separate threads together. The presentation needs a lot of work, I agree, and thats one idea, but theres more going on, and its somewhat dynamic. CC: @feonixrift @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718205301_penguin42->N_20200718205538_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719123611_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 12:36:11 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Since I'm thinking of a dedicated, credentials-access-based implementation, again some user client seems preferable. (That client might also be a server / have server features, but scoped to localhost or LAN-only, say.) The question of search (and indexing) overhead also emerges. As local or user-managed, that's borne entirely by the user. Instance-wide search would likely be expensive, and costs imposed over all users. @penguin42 @ColinTheMathmo @alcinnz @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719122751_dredmorbius->N_20200719123611_dredmorbius N_20200719130831_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 13:08:31 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius <grin> Ive patched the system to account for this case ... I dont see any way to fix it 'in general' 8-(        (select only this node)     N_20200719131019_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 13:10:19 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius This can be a problem in general. If someone can reply to you, and you can edit posts, inconsistencies can arise and be abused.        (select only this node)     N_20200719130831_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719131019_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210003_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:00:03 -------------------------------- @feonixrift 'steam dissipting' ?? BTW, I only found your comment because of the diagram ... CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719105812_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 10:58:12 -------------------------------- @galaxis Ive been idly thinking about this. You could have, for each thing you write, a filter to apply against possible readers. If the post comes 'into range' the filter is then applied against the reader to see if they pass, and only show them the post if they do. 1/n CC: @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719105850_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 10:58:50 -------------------------------- @galaxis This strikes me as being, simultaneously, very clever, very powerful, unusable, and unenforceable. Youre on the path of encrypting everything, and then providing decryption keys to people who pass certain filters. This is hard. The design is hard, the implementation is error-prone to the point of near impossibility, and I cant see how to make a UI that muggles could use. 2/2 CC: @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719105812_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719105850_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719120445_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 12:04:45 -------------------------------- @galaxis I've acknowledged this point specifically: And: 'SearchMe' also (unintentionally, or at least unconsciously) suggests a solution by way of restricting search to the user's own content & interactions. It's 'search me', not 'search you', or 'them', or 'everyone'. Don't read too much into that (the name was just what came to mind), but consider it an option which could address many concerns. Also as noted: unannounced third-party search and archives are all but inevitable especially for public content. This doesn't excuse or justify flauting objections, but colours the discussion. @ColinTheMathmo @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719120715_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 12:07:15 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius Very much so. If someone types something into an internet-connected machine, its likely to be able to be found, archived, and searched by others. That, as we all agree, is no reason to make it easy when someone wants it to be difficult. So yes, 'Search *ME*' is worth emphasising. CC: @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719120445_dredmorbius->N_20200719120715_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719100845_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 10:08:45 -------------------------------- @clacke Exactly so. Im thinking of importing this conversation into DiscDAG, but (a) people would have to register for it, (b) its fragile, and (c) one cant have media such as photos. All are drawbacks, and perhaps its better just to stay here and keep @SearchMe in the loop. CC: @feonixrift @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718214422_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:44:22 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Yes, but I think its easy to leap to the wrong place to start trying to design a thing before we know the purpose. I could be wrong. CC: @alcinnz @dredmorbius @penguin42 @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718213826_feonixrift->N_20200718214422_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719104432_galaxis    By galaxis 2020/07/19 @ 10:44:32 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius I still think that the Fediverse needs more fine-grained post policies instead of the simple visibility settings we currently have (not just in order to enable search). Open to replies? Searchable? Federated? To whom? Shown to the public web? Then add a policy protocol to exchange info on which instance supports which options On the downside, something like that could easily end up as an UI nightmare. @feonixrift @ColinTheMathmo @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719104432_galaxis->N_20200719105812_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719113835_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 11:38:35 -------------------------------- @galaxis There's a catalogue of social media capabilities and features I've contributed on #plexoduswiki Though looking this over it seems that content interactions might be an additional category to add, with capabilities by both creator and consumer. Implications of capabilities should also be considered. Example: disabling replies might reduce annoyances to creators, but might also be abused to harrass or attack others who would not be able to respond or defend themselves in context. @feonixrift @ColinTheMathmo @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719104432_galaxis->N_20200719113835_dredmorbius N_20200718214320_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:43:20 -------------------------------- @alcinnz Where does the data live? Where does the search run? What does the result look like? How do we display the result? How do we navigate the result? A standard is only a small part of all that, and existing standards may already exist. 2/2 CC: @dredmorbius @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719120021_penguin42    By penguin42 2020/07/19 @ 12:00:21 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @alcinnz @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe *most* of this should be doable as a modified mastodon client; just laying out toots you've got in threads you can see; searching should be something any mastodon server should be capable of (I'm not sure if it's API can do that currently); the hard part is keeping track of what you like/dont - if that's a personal view it would be local again, if it's something others can see you have a distributed data problem - how do polls solve it?        (select only this node)     N_20200718214320_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719120021_penguin42 N_20200718214420_alcinnz    By alcinnz 2020/07/18 @ 21:44:20 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo Fair enough, all important questions to ask! @dredmorbius @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718214320_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718214420_alcinnz N_20200719095842_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:58:42 -------------------------------- @clacke With appropriate privileges you can add, remove, or move arrows to help structure the conversation. Currently you cannot edit node contents, or delete nodes. 6/n CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719095939_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:59:39 -------------------------------- @clacke So both DiscDAG and Chartodon present conversations to the user as charts. If you are a DiscDAG user then you can modify the chart through the DiscDAG interface, and alter the presentation (somewhat). Chartodon nodes link back to the original discussion, but it a snapshot, and needs regular updating if the conversation is continuing. Apologies for the toot-storm ... I hope thats clear, but please feel free to ask questions. 7/n CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719095842_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719095939_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719083717_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/19 @ 08:37:17 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius I wish I had the brain atm to explain what the information exchange / interaction reason is on the parts. :( Feeling the strain of stress having decreased my communication ability horribly atm. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719111236_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 11:12:36 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo As much as the geek in me is drawn to this sort of design, the UI/UX realist in me sees an absolute disaster / clusterfudge for any wide-scale deployment. (I'll spare you a recent convo with a 30+ year computer user for whom cmd-A cmd-C cmd-V on a Mac was way too complicated....) Scoping content access is critically necessary but fundamentally difficult in online contexts which lack any hard notion of spatial nearness or presence. In meatspace, a surprisingly large element of who you are is where you are. Limited TTL of content also seems a useful notion. #identity #access #authentication #presence @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719113139_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 11:31:39 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius This conversation has brought to mind the novel 'Quantum Thief' by Hannu Rajaniemi Not sure its relevant, but the ideas of controlling access to ones knowledge is a (minor) theme. CC: @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719111236_dredmorbius->N_20200719113139_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718205028_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:50:28 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius I'm at the point of steam dissipating where the next thing I need to do on this is the diagrams we were discussing the other night, which will take a while. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718212719_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 21:27:19 -------------------------------- @feonixrift I've also been very slowly gestating ideas over some grand-scale infomanagement tools under the labels #KFC (Krell Functional Context) with components #docFS and #webFS, somewhat originating here: s_filesystemaccessible/ Probably not directly related for now though likely to shape my own. thoughts/goals. @ColinTheMathmo @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718205028_feonixrift->N_20200718212719_dredmorbius N_20200718211806_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 21:18:06 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Suggesting some scope / out-of-scope bounds, near goals, and maybe an MVP: We're looking for a Mastodon-integrated search. Whether that's offline (archive/grep), nearline (search instance/server), or online (integrated fully within Mastodon/Fediverse server) needs clarifying. We've already got some useful tools: #Hashtags,, Chartodon, DiscDAG. Whether all fit into end goal is open, but they suggest shapes. Privacy is a major issue, and there's been strong resistance to earlier Fediverse archival/search proposals. One view is that private ccompendia will (and likelydo) exist, mooting much of the point, but concern and opposition are all but certain, and not unfounded. Personally-scoped search seems fairly defensible: own and adjacent content & interactions. Possibly other public content. Thoughts, objections, adds, deletes? @ColinTheMathmo @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718205028_feonixrift->N_20200718211806_dredmorbius N_20200718210120_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:01:20 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Id be happy to see photos of rough sketches of not-quite the thing youre thinking. CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718205028_feonixrift->N_20200718210120_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718205028_feonixrift->N_20200718210003_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210122_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 21:01:22 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius Briefly, in case I leave this hanging and fail to diagram in a timely fashion: I consider a text conversation or a construction of textual information from the MOO/MUD perspective in the sense that you have simultaneous views as being outside the conversation looking in (room map) and within the conversation navigating around via linkages between cogent pieces. Search is an aspect of one of the external-looking-in usage cases. Sitting here like this building the pieces, we are significantly more within it but with a meta-layer that none of us are in only one place. How that meta plays out in interface, is a hard question. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718205028_feonixrift->N_20200718210122_feonixrift N_20200719121914_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 12:19:14 -------------------------------- @penguin42 One thought I've had is effectively a client/bot assigned to an individual, and having their specific Mastodon/Fediverse credentials. It could consume all of its owner's content and interactions, while also providing interfaces to query and present that. It would respond only to its owner. Interactions could be out-of-band through other tools (dedicated Web interface, CLI, app, ...), or through Mastodon DMs comprised of queries and other management commands. Outputs could be matching lists and or summaries of content, or DiscDAG/ Chartodon output, say. Searchable corpus is limited to the owner's own direct interactions: their own toots, actions, and others' mentions, faves, and boosts, say. (I'm unsure whether to include toots by followed users, though again there's no technical way to prevent this.) The upside is that an MVP should be easily doable, the effort is independent of Mastodon mainstream dev, and ultimately adaptable to other Fediverse servers. Downside is that only tech-savvy users would likely implement this. In future, that might be addressed by rolling the capability into servers. Numerous other concerns, but it seems a fair starting point. @ColinTheMathmo @alcinnz @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719120021_penguin42->N_20200719121914_dredmorbius N_20200719114019_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 11:40:19 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo That was pointedly ironic understatement, as I hope translated. @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719114233_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 11:42:33 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius It did ... my reply was a mis-quotation from somewhere so long ago I cant remember, which matches/highlights both the irony and the 'understatementness'. All good. CC: @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719114019_dredmorbius->N_20200719114233_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719111630_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 11:16:30 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo The other thought is that key-based access (quite probably with expiry) might not be as unreasonable as you think. It seems like many wants lead there. Making this feasible, robust, failsafe, and both proof against yet usable by fools, are the ... minor details.... @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719105850_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719111630_dredmorbius N_20200719105850_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719111236_dredmorbius N_20200719125613_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 12:56:13 -------------------------------- @feonixrift OK, made a change to sort of fix that. Its not a permanent fix, but it keeps this conversation on track. CC: @dredmorbius @penguin42 @alcinnz @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719123800_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719125613_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719125902_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 12:59:02 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo An occupational hazard around me: crap mobile keyboard meets obsessive editorial tendencies.        (select only this node)     N_20200719123800_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719125902_dredmorbius N_20200719125902_dredmorbius->N_20200719130831_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719121914_dredmorbius->N_20200719121927_feonixrift N_20200719095654_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:56:54 -------------------------------- @clacke In that case there is the concept of a 'quote-tweet', so I have additional arrows cross-connecting conversations that might otherwise be separate. So thats Chartodon ... what is DiscDAG? Fed up with sprawling conversations that were ambiguous and/or impossible to follow, I created DiscDAG, which is a host for conversations, where single ideas, concepts, or sentences are each put in a separate node. 4/n CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719095753_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:57:53 -------------------------------- @clacke You can navigate around by selecting nodes, and then compose a single reply to multiple nodes. Here is an example: ussionSystem&SelectOnly=N_20200205120440a_Admin Clicking on one of these nodes does not take you back to Mastodon, because conversations in DiscDAG do not come from Mastodon, they are their own entities. The link you quoted was incomplete. 5/n CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719095654_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719095753_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718203654_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:36:54 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius This conversation, by the way, is *exactly* the kind of conversation for which I designed DiscDAG ... too bad its not yet mature enough to be easy to use. CC: @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203735_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 20:37:35 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo You got looped in here Because Reasons. @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203654_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718203735_dredmorbius N_20200718203758_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:37:58 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius But it does _something_ .. which is more than most. And I was surprised by how highly readable the result was, as an after-report on a conversation. I'd had no idea we branched as much the other night as we had. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203654_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718203758_feonixrift N_20200719142755_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/19 @ 14:27:55 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius @penguin42 @alcinnz This is something, as a fast typist when active, I have a hard time not causing. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719125613_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719142755_feonixrift N_20200719095753_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719095842_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718203630_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 20:36:30 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Dittos both points. @ColinTheMathmo @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718214257_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718214320_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210958_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:09:58 -------------------------------- @penguin42 There are, and I could probably do as you suggest. At this point its all experimental, and Im not sure thats the right thing to be doing. Forcing some parts can seriously screw with the rest of it, so Im reluctant (just now). Options for changing the layout are definitely on the list. CC: @feonixrift @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718211118_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 21:11:18 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @penguin42 @dredmorbius I think it'd be worth while to go full user-story on this and see what we want out of it .. it's exposing some excellent new capabilities, maybe those can spur the imagination further. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718210958_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718211118_feonixrift N_20200718212854_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 21:28:54 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo Fussing overly w/ presentation strikes me as suboptimal for now on several grounds. Bikesheds being the least of these. @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718210958_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718212854_dredmorbius N_20200718203838_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:38:38 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius What is a Chartodon? @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203838_feonixrift->N_20200718203912_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210242_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:02:42 -------------------------------- @feonixrift k CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718214539_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:45:39 -------------------------------- @alcinnz I suspect that a standard may be an important part of what we end up doing, and then we can write tools to implement it, but I have before now been in situations where people started in the middle, worked outwards, and answered a question nobody asked! CC: @dredmorbius @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718222739_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 22:27:39 -------------------------------- OK, Im off for the night ... more tomorrow. Cheers! CC: @alcinnz @dredmorbius @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718214539_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718222739_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718212854_dredmorbius->N_20200718213659_alcinnz N_20200718212958_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:29:58 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius Agreed entirely. CC: @penguin42 @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718212854_dredmorbius->N_20200718212958_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719115510_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 11:55:10 -------------------------------- @galaxis Agreed. CC: @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203756_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:37:56 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Having grup the file, one could then use something like Chartodon to extract the full conversation(s). CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203756_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718203838_feonixrift N_20200719095939_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719100105_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719100512_clacke    By clacke 2020/07/19 @ 10:05:12 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @feonixrift @dredmorbius No need to apologize. This is the answer I wanted. So the reason DiscDAG can have conversations that are not trees is that the conversations don't come from Fedi. I read that as implied in , but I read wrong.        (select only this node)     N_20200719095939_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719100512_clacke N_20200719095550_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:55:50 -------------------------------- @clacke As drebmorbius says, any toot can have only one parent, so you end up with a tree. That may change ... Im thinking of adapting the system so that if toot A mentions or references toot B, then there is some kind of arrow between the nodes for A and B. I do that now for Chitter, where I draw similar charts for Twitter conversations. 3/n CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719095550_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719095654_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719075543_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 07:55:43 -------------------------------- @clacke As for Mastodon URIs in charts: the example you're asking about isn't a Mastodon/Fediverse-based discussion, there are no corresponding Mastodon posts. DiscDAG is a superset of Chartodon: AFAIU the latter is generated using the former, but not all DiscDAG graphs are of Mastodon discussions, so there aren't corresponding links. As in the graph you've linked above. If you visit a Chartodon page, you can click on individual nodes to link to the corresponding Mastodon post. As here: The URIs for Chartodon specifically reference it, at least here, which may help. DiscDAG has a different local path in your link. @ColinTheMathmo @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719112114_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 11:21:14 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius ... for some definition of 'minor' of which I was previously unaware. <fx: grin /> But yes to all that. CC: @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719111630_dredmorbius->N_20200719112114_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718212004_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 21:20:04 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius @ColinTheMathmo General . Expect me to over-focus on the shape of information. But I've also coded against the Mastodon client api so can speak somewhat to the annoying limitations it's going to bring in for anything client-side. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718211806_dredmorbius->N_20200718212004_feonixrift N_20200718211806_dredmorbius->N_20200719104432_galaxis N_20200718204501_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:45:01 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius This is not a divert! This is a live implementation of one aspect of the point! =] @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718204501_feonixrift N_20200718205103_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 20:51:03 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo The conversation chart belongs on-thread, though I believe your link is at least semi-live-updated, or updatable. @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718205103_dredmorbius N_20200719030349_clacke    By clacke 2020/07/19 @ 03:03:49 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius @feonixrift When does the tree turn into a non-tree DAG? When a post mentions multiple posts by URL? How can I find the URL of the post represented by ?        (select only this node)     N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719030349_clacke N_20200718204752_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:47:52 -------------------------------- @feonixrift For a time I will keep that diagram of this conversation updated. CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718204752_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718233136_Valenoern    By Valenoern 2020/07/18 @ 23:31:36 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo I love the concept of chartodon diagrams and the first time I saw one I actually went looking for a way to self-host it for my own threads mastodon is really frustrating to me because both A) vs twitter, toots have vastly more business staying around to cross-reference instead of it not mattering if everyone deleted them all after a month B) mastodon has Zero cross-referencing tools such you have to dig through your profile 20 pages to find ideas you're still talking about        (select only this node)     N_20200718204339_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718233136_Valenoern N_20200718203758_feonixrift->N_20200719104839_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719113518_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/19 @ 11:35:18 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius @galaxis Access management and long term design on that front, I will defer to @ cwebber @ (not tagging them in only because I don't want to bother them; they're awesome) who has been formulating an OCAP based solution for some time now. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719113139_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719113518_feonixrift N_20200719114228_galaxis    By galaxis 2020/07/19 @ 11:42:28 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo In the context of online communications, I'm usually interested in the distribution of knowledge in general - but I would want to be able to limit access to knowledge about myself and details of my circumstances (even though I may still want to talk about those with a limited set of contacts). On the other hand maybe that's feature creep, and it's better to clearly focus on the first part and split off the second into something else entirely. @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719113139_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719114228_galaxis N_20200719095321_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:53:21 -------------------------------- @clacke @dredmorbius has got it right, so this is partly just a re-phrasing and expansion of what they said. Chartodon and DiscDAG are two different things, but there are commonalities. Each takes a discussion and presents it in a diagram, but the sources are different. 1/n CC: @SearchMe @dredmorbius @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719030349_clacke->N_20200719095321_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719033024_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 03:30:24 -------------------------------- @clacke AFAIU toots specifically reference their parent, so any child has at most one parent. Side / indirect references via hyperlinks may exist. @ColinTheMathmo @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719030349_clacke->N_20200719033024_dredmorbius N_20200719030349_clacke->N_20200719075543_dredmorbius N_20200719114355_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 11:43:55 -------------------------------- @galaxis We have strayed somewhat from the initial: 'I want to be able to search' CC: @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719114228_galaxis->N_20200719114355_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210122_feonixrift->N_20200719083717_feonixrift N_20200718210321_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:03:21 -------------------------------- @feonixrift I can vaguely gestalt that, but I dont think I actually grok it. CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718210122_feonixrift->N_20200718210321_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719115356_galaxis    By galaxis 2020/07/19 @ 11:53:56 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo I agree, but there was strong opposition against the implementation of broad search functions in Mastodon by groups who didn't want their communications the be searchable for various good reasons. There's probably tons of posts about that from around when Gargron introduced the additional elasticsearch index. There's instances who try to defederate from anyone who runs more detailed search. We'll need a widely accepted way to opt out. @dredmorbius @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719115356_galaxis->N_20200719120445_dredmorbius N_20200719115356_galaxis->N_20200719115510_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210827_penguin42    By penguin42 2020/07/18 @ 21:08:27 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @feonixrift @dredmorbius @SearchMe Yeh it's a while since I've fought graphviz; I could swear there were some things to persuade things to line up.        (select only this node)     N_20200718210827_penguin42->N_20200718210958_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210527_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 21:05:27 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Some bits I get, and Im thinking about having a 'purely local' version of navigating that diagram. You can already do that (in some sense) with conversations in DiscDAG, where you have one node selected, can see the contents of neighbours, and then only stubs of their neighbours. Visit here: ussionSystem&SelectOnly=N_20200205120440a_Admin (thats a repeat link) CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718210321_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718210527_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718204752_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718205028_feonixrift N_20200718204752_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718205301_penguin42 N_20200719093306_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:33:06 -------------------------------- @Valenoern I can help you implement/install your own version of Chartodon if you like. Its fragile, ornery, and pre-alpha, but if you understand all that then you can have a copy of what Ive got, and I can provide some limited assistance to help you get it working. It might be an interesting experiment, but also might not be a good use of your time.        (select only this node)     N_20200718203551_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:35:51 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius @ColinTheMathmo I literally download mine as a json file and grep it. not ideal. @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203551_feonixrift->N_20200718203630_dredmorbius N_20200718203551_feonixrift->N_20200718203756_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719095436_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 09:54:36 -------------------------------- @clacke In the case of Chartodon, there is software that I run off-line. I give it a Mastodon reference (specifically from the instance), and it traces the conversation, and draws the chart. Each node on the chart corresponds to a single toot (although that may change), and clicking on the node opens the toot for you. An example is here: 2/n CC: @dredmorbius @SearchMe @feonixrift        (select only this node)     N_20200719095436_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719095550_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718203336_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 20:33:36 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo This is exactly it .. this structure needs diagrams. Lots of diagrams. [matrix scene, but diagrams instead of weapons] @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203116_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718203336_feonixrift N_20200718203508_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/18 @ 20:35:08 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo For myself, as a first order I'd like to be able to search my own toots, and very likely those mentioning / involving me. An improved hashtag search -- filters by author, date, instance, or excluded terms (or above conditions) would also be useful. Public search of the present instance would also likely be useful. @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718203116_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718203508_dredmorbius N_20200718233136_Valenoern->N_20200719093306_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718203545_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/18 @ 20:35:45 -------------------------------- @feonixrift Not all diagrams suit all people. We need a knowledge base and multiple ways of interrogating it, displaying the results, accessing the information ... not *data*, *information.* I always liked the original wiki concept ... free-flowing exchanges, gradually distilled. CC: @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719112114_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719114019_dredmorbius N_20200719114355_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719115356_galaxis N_20200719115502_dredmorbius    By dredmorbius 2020/07/19 @ 11:55:02 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo Good call. Though as noted, searchability, by creators or especially others, has profound privacy impacts by changing targeted information access costs. Combined with authentication or unauthorised access / information disclosure, making even personally-scoped search (my own content, adjacent content, interactions) a potential risk. Something I'm mindful of on KFC, previously mentioned. But yes: how do we facilitate search, and on what. @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719114355_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719115502_dredmorbius N_20200718210222_feonixrift    By feonixrift 2020/07/18 @ 21:02:22 -------------------------------- @ColinTheMathmo @dredmorbius I haven't sketched it yet and I have to un-up-ge-f'k my phone before I can readily handle photos of sketches... so, they're on the list. :glares at list: @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200718210222_feonixrift->N_20200718210242_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719115715_ColinTheMathmo    By ColinTheMathmo 2020/07/19 @ 11:57:15 -------------------------------- @dredmorbius Agreed. As it stands, its hard to allow people easily defined control over their own output, while still also allowing search for those who want it. The technical definitions and specifications is hard enough already. Add to that the requirement for easily understood and easily specified control, and its very hard indeed. As we all know, but occasionally need reminding of. CC: @galaxis @feonixrift @SearchMe        (select only this node)     N_20200719115502_dredmorbius->N_20200719115715_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718205538_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718210827_penguin42 N_20200718203508_dredmorbius->N_20200718203551_feonixrift N_20200718203508_dredmorbius->N_20200718203654_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719100512_clacke->N_20200719100845_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718210120_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200718210222_feonixrift N_20200718205103_dredmorbius->N_20200718205722_ColinTheMathmo N_20200719095321_ColinTheMathmo->N_20200719095436_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718203336_feonixrift->N_20200718203545_ColinTheMathmo N_20200718214420_alcinnz->N_20200718214539_ColinTheMathmo